Sorry if I left you thew impression that I was "running scared"....
The fact remains is that at any one time 45 million Americans have no form of health insurance... you can try and determine the reason for this, but the numbers are indeed accurate.
So you quote the Business & Media Institute whose goal is to "Advance the culture of free enterprise in America". Since American health care is a business, does anyone see the potential for bias?
Now given, you made a good point as to why many of these Americans do not have health insurance, (because they are between jobs). So basically the number has likely gone up substantially over the past year or so due to the current economic state of the country.
Do unemployed Americans somehow have the magic ability to chose when they get sick, so that they are only sick when they are employed and insured? (If this is true I think it would be worth mentioning here).
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Originally Posted by carfreak67[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Notice how the Socialist healthcare advocates just ignored my post about the supposed 45 million uninsured?
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Why does the U.S. have second worst newborn death rate in modern world?
(Kudos for beating Latvia by the way !)
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Friend Griff[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Why is Canada's death rate from cancer 20% higher than here in the US? Could it be because you have to wait 6 to 8 weeks for radiation treatments?
Companies are in business to do one thing and one thing only.... MAKE MONEY !!.
It doesn't matter if it's selling the news or sandwiches or providing auto or health insurance. The over ridding priority for any company is profit, this basic business fundamental is often in direct conflict with providing the best care to the patient.
The Canadian Heath care system is far from perfect, but IMO your current Heath Care system is seriously flawed. We train and then lose many doctors to the U.S. because you pay them more and they are required to work less hours. This has a direct impact on wait times etc.
You get treated and then can't afford to buy the medication so you come up here in busloads to buy our meds at regulated prices.
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Having been born and raised in a country with Universal health care, and having to sit for hours in the Emergency room with a gash on my head at the tender age of 14 until I was seen by a nurse practitioner who sewed me shut, let me tell you: SCREW UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!
Don't even get me started on the constant strikes by doctors and nurses because the government either didn't pay them or paid them what they thought the job was worth, not what it really cost.
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SIR NUPE A LOT
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AngryBot
Well when two admins fall deeply in love.....they can't physically have children so they adopt one and that's how a moderator is made.
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Griff
Hugs and no kisses (cause that is how I roll)
Having been born and raised in a country with Universal health care, and having to sit for hours in the Emergency room with a gash on my head at the tender age of 14 until I was seen by a nurse practitioner who sewed me shut, let me tell you: SCREW UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!
Don't even get me started on the constant strikes by doctors and nurses because the government either didn't pay them or paid them what they thought the job was worth, not what it really cost.
You totally ignored the fact that the vast majority of the those 'Americans' without health insurance aren't even citizens.
Face it, universal health care will never work as well as private insurance.
We need to get rid of all forms of government health care to help improve our system here in the US.
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Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. -Alexis de Tocqueville
It doesn't matter if it's selling the news or sandwiches or providing auto or health insurance. The over ridding priority for any company is profit, this basic business fundamental is often in direct conflict with providing the best care to the patient.
No it isnt. The reason that healthcare costs so much in the US is becauseof medicare and mediCal programs. Eliminate those and the costs would drop like a rock in a swimming pool because if the doctors, hospiltals and drug companies would not have any patients left to treat. If they would also burn lawyers at the stake the mal-practice insurance costs would go down and not have ot be passed to the customers.
The Canadian Heath care system is far from perfect, but IMO your current Heath Care system is seriously flawed. We train and then lose many doctors to the U.S. because you pay them more and they are required to work less hours. This has a direct impact on wait times etc.
And if a universal health care plan is imposed in the US then the doctors that we have here (that are already being overwhelemed with senior citizens) will be completely burried and I wont be able to get the treatment I may need one day.
Would you like me to tell you how Europe and Canada keeps its rates so low? Here is a hint: The US counts every birth with the exception of still born as a live birth. Europe and Canada do not. It is not considered a live birth until the baby is out of a neo natal facility. If it dies with in a few minutes of being born it is not counted as a live birth at all. If Europe and Canada were to count birth using the same standard as we do in the US you would see that the US is at or near the top of infant death rates and well above Canada as our children that are in distress at birth do not have to wait 2 months to get in to a neo natal unit.
And none of the Canadian champions of universal health care have answered me about their higher death rates from cancers due to the fact that it takes 2 months to get radiation treatments.
^^^^being someone who has family and very close friends affected by cancer, i`d like to know where you got the 2 months from...
Like Rob said; all urgent cases get treated immediately. I have 5 close family/friends who has suspicious exams or signs of possible cancer and their treatment started immediately.
There might be longer delays for treatment than in the US, but 2 months is exaggerated and stating that death rates are higher is pure speculation (as far as i'm concerned; i've never heard of any research or study proving otherwise...but i'd be interested if you post something up).
A good SHORT article comparing our two countries: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The link below will take you to one of best papers ever written on the topic of our two health care systems... it's a long read but if your really want to be informed spend ten minutes reading it. Although it was written in Canada it's none biased.
A systematic review of studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the United States [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I hate to say it griff, but the first link you posted showed that we only had a slight advantage over canada in having fewer deaths, and the last link basically showed a few countries with national health care doing better than us by having fewer deaths per 100K.
Originally Posted by carfreak67[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
No, but you do have to worry about waiting months for routine tests and exams, higher taxes and generally inferior levels of healthcare.
Other than that, you're right. It's about the same as here in the US.
Yep, underfunding diagnostic tests works the same in an HMO as is does under socialized health care.
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Friend Griff[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
And none of the Canadian champions of universal health care have answered me about their higher death rates from cancers due to the fact that it takes 2 months to get radiation treatments.
Your links actually disproved your point Griff. The 2 month wait is intellectually dishonest as well, as you're not qualifying first, which type of cancer (it's a minor skin cancer which may metastasize into a melanoma) and second what degree that cancer is in question. If you have stage 3 liver cancer, you're not waiting 2 months, you're talking to an oncologist within an hour. But how would I know about this? And on top of that, world wide death rates for many types of cancer are going up: the main nuclear reactor that makes medical isotopes for radiation treatment is in Chalk River Ontario (which is privately owned, btw)... it supplies about 45% of the radioactive materials used in radiation therapy used in the world. The other ones are in Poland and Russia, and there is questions as to whether or not they can fill the gap. But then again, they're publicly owned.
KINGSTON, Ontario (CNN) -- For Shona Holmes, simple pleasures such as playing with her dog or walking in her plush garden are a gift.
After suffering from crushing headaches and vision problems, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor four years ago. She was told if it wasn't removed, she could go blind or even die.
"They said to me that you had a brain tumor and it was pressing on your optic chasm and that it needed to come out immediately," Holmes said.
Holmes is Canadian, but the "they" she refers to are doctors at the Mayo Clinic in the United States, where she turned after specialists in her own government-run health care system would not see her fast enough.
"My family doctor at that time tried to get me in to see an endocrinologist and a neurologist," Holmes recalled. "It was going to be four months for one specialist and six months for the other."
Even with the warning from U.S. doctors in hand, Holmes said she still couldn't get in to see Canadian specialists. Because the government system is the only health care option for Canadians, she says she had no choice but to have the surgery in the U.S.
Her treatment at the Mayo Clinic in Arizona cost $100,000, and she and her husband put a second mortgage on their home and borrowed from family and friends to pay for it.
When she recounts that part of her painful story, she weeps.
"That's the stuff that I find so tragic -- having dinner with my friends and I know how much money I owe them," Holmes says, tears streaming down her face.
McConnell singled out Kingston General Hospital in Ontario as a prime example of what Americans should be fearful of: staggering delays in treatment.
CNN went to Kingston General and played a DVD for its chief of staff Dr. David Zelt of McConnell slamming the hospital.
Zelt insists McConnell's numbers -- an average of 340 days wait time for knee replacements, 196 days for hip replacements -- are an exaggeration.
"I find it very frustrating that someone of that stature would not really have true knowledge of the numbers he is actually quoting on things," Zelt told us, saying the average wait time for a knee replacement is actually 109 days, and a hip replacement is 91 days.
However, Zelt does concede that in Canada's system, where every Canadian citizen is covered, there are limited resources, shortages and often delays.
If I had to wait 4 months to get a tumor removed I would go on a politician killing spree and blame it on the tumor that I could not get removed. Oh and 90 days for a hip replacement is a fucking joke. I am 34 and if I wanted a hip replacement tomorrow I could get one because I have private insurance. How do you people live with that kind of delay?
Here's an excerpt from the story that you didn't comment on regarding cancer wait times...
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Despite Shona Holmes' horror story about her inability to get timely treatment for a brain tumor, Canadian officials and doctors insist most life-threatening cases are treated quickly.
Toronto's Doug Wright can attest to that. The 40-year-old father of three young boys found out last month he has cancer -- a tumor on his leg.
But he says he never had to wait more than five days to see a specialist or get a test. And from diagnosis to surgery, it will be just over a month.
"The community medical system thought this process could not have been any better. I have not had to wait to see some of the best specialists in the country, who are renowned internationally," Wright said. Video Watch Wright talk about his treatment »
An investment adviser, Wright has the money to go to the U.S. for his care, but says there is no need.
But Wright recognizes one reason he has gotten such a rapid response from Canadian doctors is because he has cancer.
"The bad news is I didn't have to wait for anything, because you don't have to wait when it's a serious issue," he said.
Still, people can wait for months, or even years, for elective surgery.
Wright's friend Rick Hession has a heart condition that could cause a stroke, but he has a three-month wait or more for an operation to help correct it.
He says he can't exercise the way he would like to until he gets the surgery, but he's willing to wait. He calls it a small price to pay for free health coverage for all Canadians.
Perhaps your Health Insurance Provider would deem the procedure "experimental" or find out that you committed fraud in you original application, (like forgetting that you had your blood pressure taken once but didn't indicate this on your application etc).
At least your estate could sue...
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Friend Griff[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Even CNN thinks that Canada's health system is a joke:
If I had to wait 4 months to get a tumor removed I would go on a politician killing spree and blame it on the tumor that I could not get removed. Oh and 90 days for a hip replacement is a fucking joke. I am 34 and if I wanted a hip replacement tomorrow I could get one because I have private insurance. How do you people live with that kind of delay?
Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Friend Griff[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If I had to wait 4 months to get a tumor removed I would go on a politician killing spree and blame it on the tumor that I could not get removed. Oh and 90 days for a hip replacement is a fucking joke. I am 34 and if I wanted a hip replacement tomorrow I could get one because I have private insurance. How do you people live with that kind of delay?
One: Depends on the type of tumor. Do you understand the word Triage? They use it in US hospitals as well, just because you have private insurance doesn't put you ahead of someone in greater need of care.
Two: Hip replacement at 34 unless you had a bone-atrophy condition (which in that case would be a band-aid solution) is ridiculous. The wait time is simply because we have a small problem with the US being so close, we lose a lot of qualified surgeons who had subsidized education. That's due to change soon though.
You can also ask a lot of the people that have no medical insurance in the US how they live with the delay or the debt.
I just watched "Prescription for America" [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] and i thought it was pretty unconvincing. He really didn't sell it well. I especially laugh at the fact that obama keeps saying we don't have to drop our private insurance for the public one... well c'mon, look at Hawaii and what happened there! lol.
I dunno... i'm still on the fence. I understand the benefits (some are very big), but the potential cons of it are scary... especially longterm.
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